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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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 Posted: Tue May 07, 2002 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Are we Christians for life, regardless of our actions.
If God has given us salvation through his son Jesus Christ, why should we really work hard on eliminating those sins which brings us pleasure, after all we'll still be going to heaven.
Can habitual sexually related sinning, cause a Christian to have their Christian Drivers Licence, suspended until they repent. If a Christian won't stop what they know to be a sin, but chose to continue in it anyway, because of the pleasure it brings them, are they a Christian, are they a believer?. Can you be a Carnal Christian?
Paul writes in RO: 8-5-14
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Wed May 08, 2002 5:19 am Post subject: |
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From my studies & teachings, salvation is eternal security.
"If God has given us salvation through his son Jesus Christ, why should we really work hard on eliminating those sins which brings us pleasure, after all we'll still be going to heaven."
Why? To show our love for God and to bring glory to Him as his children. We are called apart to be different from the world so they may see our light shine and know that we belong to Him. In actuality, sometimes its really not about "working hard" to stop sinning. It's more so allowing Christ more control over one's life. The Holy Spirit is our helper, to help us live this Christian life. "It is not I who live, but Christ who lives within me" type of mentality we need to constantly have. He is the tree, we are the branches, so we must continually abide in Him. In order to live empowered lives, we must be spirit-controlled and spirit-minded. This entails alot. We must also strive to do this to be HOLY. The Bible tells us that without holiness, no one will see God. "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." (Rom 6:22)
"Can habitual sexually related sinning, cause a Christian to have their Christian Drivers Licence, suspended until they repent. If a Christian won't stop what they know to be a sin, but chose to continue in it anyway, because of the pleasure it brings them, are they a Christian, are they a believer?. Can you be a Carnal Christian?"
Yes, I believe you can still be a believer (carnal, as you call it) while habitually sinning because Paul tells us that the spirit and the flesh are always at war with each other. "So I find it to be law that when I want to do good, evil is ever present within me and I am subject to its insistent demands." (Rom 7:21)
It's a constant battle & struggle. But we are no longer slaves to sin, and are under GRACE. "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." (Rom 6:14). AND..."What then? Shall we sin because we live not under Law but under God's favor and mercy? Certainly not! (vs 15).
The beginning of Romans 8 tells us this...."Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin in death."
It can however cause broken fellowship with God. Also, if you continue to sin, knowing it is wrong but use the "I can ask for forgiveness later" justification, this cheapens grace & Christ's sacred blood for us. I definitely know how it can be to constantly struggle with a sin, and can relate to what Paul teaches us. But I never stopped asking God to help me conquer it, and he knew my heart, and now I no longer struggle w/ that sin. The flesh is soooooooooooo weak, but just know that His Spirit is ever-powerful. We just have to allow it to live through us daily, and not try to live this Christian life through our own efforts. Christ lives the Christian life for us IF WE LET HIM.
Danielle |
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GIC
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Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 102
Location: IL.
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2002 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting topic Dave. I feel that 1 John talks about assurance of salvation.
1 John 2:4
The man who says I know Him but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truely made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 3:9-10
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him: he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God: neither is anyone who doesn't love his brother.
| Quote: | | If a Christian won't stop what they know to be a sin, but choose to do it anyway, because of the pleasure it brings them. Are they a Christian? Are they a believer? |
The key words here are won't stop and choose. If you are blatently sinning, and willfully disobedient, no, you are not going to get into the gates. It's a heart condition. If you are addicted and can't help yourself, this is another matter.
GIC |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2002 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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While salavation is clearly assured in the bible, but being a Christian is not. Being a Christian is a life long passion, something to be thought about each day. I think God is looking for Full-Time Christians. True we will trip up from time to time, but we need recognized that we actually did sin., and regret doing so.
Some Christians play russian roulette with their faith. In one breath they make the statements of a believer, but willfully and on purpose continue those pleasures they are unwilling to give up. But either due to interest or age, they give them up over time. The trick is for them to do it before they die or suffer the consequence of their actions.
REV 3:16
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
In my opinion, and this is only my opinion. God gives us salvation, and we chose to be Christains. And only with the help of the Holy Spirit can we begin to recognize sin and reduce it. Again sin can only be reduced with the indwelled Holy Spirit. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 8:45 am Post subject: |
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I dunno, I have some questions here. John says that "unless a man is born again he enter the kingdom." And doesn't being born again mean getting saved? So if you are born again you may not necessarily get into the kingdom if you are still living a sinful lifestyle then? Salvation gives eternal life, so how can one not go to heaven if they are saved?
Personally I think its a 2-step process---yes salvation is involved, but it doesn't stop there! You need to take up the cross daily to live for him.
"Some Christians play russian roulette with their faith. In one breath they make the statements of a believer, but willfully and on purpose continue those pleasures they are unwilling to give up. But either due to interest or age, they give them up over time. The trick is for them to do it before they die or suffer the consequence of their actions."
I think its all about growth:
Go to God Daily
Read the Word
Obey God moment by moment
Witness
Trust in the Lord
Holy Spirit---rely on him daily
Maybe some do. But yes, a heart change is necessary, and like Growthtrac says in the "becoming a Christian" section, it involves 3 steps. Believing, Receiving, and Becoming. You can believe, but not receive Christ fully into your heart yet. And we know the "becoming" step is a life-long process. Also in Bible study, we are learning that after you are saved, many steps are involved afterwards. Don't remember them all, but there is santification, justification, and I don't remember the other 2.
In my opinion, its really about maturing in your walk vs age or interest. A person can be a baby Christian at age 60, if they haven't been studying their word, going to a church where they are being taught the word, and all the other things we should do. And you can have a very mature Christian at age 25 or 19. They key is crucifying the flesh DAILY. It's a daily thing, which is why we must read, pray, worship, be amongst other believers. But we are no longer slaves to sin.
"In my opinion, and this only my opinion. God gives us salvation, and we chose to be Christains. And only with the help of the Holy Spirit can we begin to recognize sin and reduce it. Again sin can only be reduced with the indwelled Holy Spirit."
YES! |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You can believe, but not receive Christ fully into your heart yet |
How many people are Christians, for the same reason they buy life insurance. They take out the policy and then forget about it, whats to worry about.
Can a practicing prostitue call themselves a Christian?
Can a mob hit man call himself a Christian, who is still planning and making hits?
Can a married man call himself a Christian, while at the same time carry on an affair with another women?
Many people call themselves Christians, because they made a one-time pledge of belief in Jesus Christ. They got caught up in the excitement of the moment, the place, and the people. But there needs to be follow through on your promise. Christianity is not a passive, being a Christian means we act upon on faith.
I like the book of ACTS, it is so appropriately titled, note it is not titled works. The actions of the apostles what they did. They were men of action and change. So many Christian feel, being a Christian is like getting a suntan, you just lie on the beach until it's time to go, wa-la they have a suntan.
1 CO 6:9-11
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God
Footnotes from the Life Application Bible-NIV-Zondervan
Paul is describing charactertics of unbelievers. He doesn't mean that idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, durnkards, slanders, or swindlers are automatically and irrevocaly excluded from heaven. They may still struggle with evil desires, but they should not continue in these practices. Paul clearly states the even those who sin in these ways can have their lives changed by Christ. However those who say that they are Christian, but presist in these practices with no sign of remorse will not inherit the kingdom of God. These people need to reevaluate their lives to see if they truly believe in Christ.
I like the Christian T-Shirt that says:
Are you a Christian? Is there enough evidence to convict you. ??? |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Yep, it takes alot to be a Christian! Easier "said" than "done."
There has to be fruit.
Jesus even says "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will see my face, only the one who does the will of my Father" in Matthew, I believe.
So it is incorrect to to conclude that salvation or being born again ensures that one will go to heaven?? |
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Davep
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Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So it is incorrect to to conclude that salvation or being born again ensures that one will go to heaven?? |
The wording of a question can often times back you into a force answer. Can God create a rock so big he himself cannot lift it? The way we ask questions often times creates a false conclusion. The question should be how do you know if you are truly born again in the first place.
PR 20:11
Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. .
Here is a simplier way to state the problem.
Are you married? Can people tell by seeing you and your spouse together.
Are you a chef? Can people tell by sampling your food.
Are you a tennis player? Can they tell if they watched you play.
Are you a skier? Could they tell if the sat and watch you.
Can you swim? What would happen if you jumped into a pool?
Can you drive a car? What do your passengers see?
Do you take care of your teeth? What does your dentist say?
Are you a Christian? How do people know, can they tell or do you we have to tell them?
This is not about how good or how well you are at it, but are you doing something. Do you practice your faith, in real-life. This is not just going to church, reading the bible, and being in fellowship. Those are tools of the faith, they are not faith. |
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GIC
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Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 102
Location: IL.
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:29 am Post subject: |
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In another forum we were talking about "Cafiteria Catholics", I think we can be "Casual Christians" also. Danielle, I agree about the age and maturity thing. I was reading Titus 2 today.
It is not about age, but maturity. Paul was telling his young mentoree Titus to teach each age (or stage) how to act at thier age. On a daily basis, I feel we need to see how God wants to use us in a practical way. Stay in prayer and communion with God. Paul mentions in 2:3, how we are not to be "enslaved" by wine. That was the trap in that time period. Are there others?
Internet perhaps?
Am I not getting my families needs met because I can't stay off the net? GTG  GIC |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In my opinion, its really about maturing in your walk vs age or interest |
My point was some sins, for example sins of youth seem to fall away as we get older, and our interest change. Hopefully we aren't stealing packs of gum any more at the corner store. And if your married, you are no longer dealing with the sex before marriage issue any more. True other sins may present themselves, but some sins are no longer a challenge. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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"The question should be how do you know if you are truly born again in the first place."
Ok, then I can rephrase the question to ask: If one accepts Jesus into their heart & is saved, are they going to heaven? |
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webacus
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Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 612
Location: Behind you.
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Danielle, sorry, I just jumped in to the middle of this. :0
Are you asking the question below?
| Quote: | | If one accepts Jesus into their heart & is saved, are they going to heaven? |
Or, are you suggesting a new topic? |
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Davep
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If one accepts Jesus into their heart |
How does one accept Jesus into their heart? Exactly how is that done? Is there a change I would see before and after? How does one know if they accepted Jesus, do they get a confirmation letter from God?
:rolleyes:
Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is the beginning of a never ending acceptance. You cannot just "talk-the-talk", you must also "walk-the-walk". A verbal acceptance alone of Jesus, is incomplete.
1 John 2:5-6
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
But to answer your question as phrased, if you do what God has asked and is written in the Bible, you are saved, and will be welcome into the kingdom of Heaven. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Webacus:
No, not really a new topic, just adding on to Davep's comments.
Davep:
What I mean by accept Jesus, is believing in their heart that Christ died for their sins, and confessing this. When one says "the sinner's prayer" as they call it, to invite Jesus into their heart to become saved.
Yes! It definitely doesn't end there.
The $64,000 question we see alot is "how does one get to heaven?"
By living a good life? NO
By going to church? NO
By following the golden-rule? NO
And I've always been taught (and read) that salvation (what was stated above) is what gets one to heaven.... |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I like the Growthtrac article:"What is Christianity?", that Danielle suggested. Some points are summarized below:
The first step in the process is believing the things we've talked about. Believing that you are a sinner in need of a savior [Jesus] and that Jesus died for your sins.
The next step is Receive. So far, you might be thinking, "Great! We're all going to heaven!" That's not true. The bible says we must receive Jesus in to our lives. Receiving means personally appropriating what Jesus did for you. It is a personal transaction where you talk to God through prayer, admit your need for Jesus, admit and ask forgiveness for your sin and ask Jesus to come in to your life as your leader and friend.
Many people who think they are Christians skip the second step, Receiving Jesus in their life... Believing is the easy part. You need to take the next step. There needs to be a defining moment in your life when you took that step.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I like the emphasis in receiving Jesus into one's Life, over the use of the word Heart. While the heart is more romantic and personal sounding, it doesn't convey the richness of receiving something. God gave us a gift, we need to let him know we got it and that we plan on using it to change our lives. |
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