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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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 Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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So if I understand correctly, the point here seems to be that a person can be saved, but not necessarily a Christian, right?
Or even furthermore, they can be saved, not even a Christian (but might think they are), and not even going to heaven?
I've always thought of it as a "saved" person is one who has accepted "salvation" but a Christian is one who lives a Christlike life. But at the same time, if a saved person is promised eternal life(according to the Bible), and eternal security, I don't see how they cannot go to heaven. |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| In order to be saved, you have to become a real christian, first. The sticky question is can you lose your salvation due to sin? The general answer is no, because Jesus paid the ransom for our sins, past, present and future. With salvation assured, can you loose it? |
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kelly
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 232
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2002 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I am jumping right into the middle of this,and I am very tired, but want to try to add my two cents quickly...
I do believe you can lose your salvation. Jesus said that noone sees the Father except thru Him. Well, if we accept Jesus, do all that we are required to do to the best of our abilities, (which does not mean lead a sinless life, but strive for holiness), but then fall back into sin that we know we shouldn't be doing and we allow that sin to become more important than Jesus (like going back into prostitution after stopping, stealing again on an regular basis without repenting...) then we are not seeing tihngs thru Christ anymore, and doesn't that include the father? We don't have to walk on eggshelld for fear of losing salvation, Jesus paid the price for our sins, but the Bible says He knows our hearts and if our hearts aren't in the right place, if we habitually sin, knowingly against God, then aren't we kind of spitting in his face? Like, "I'm already saved, what are you going to do?". ??? |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Sat May 11, 2002 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Kelly
That was excellantly stated, and perfectly conveyed :happy: |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sat May 11, 2002 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Well I don't feel one can "lose their salvation" personally. I'm a believer in the "once saved, always saved" and that we have eternal security if we have TRULY accepted Christ into our lives as Lord & Savior. Alot of people accept Christ as their Savior but then they don't make him the Lord of their life. The two go hand-in-hand. God does know our hearts. This definitely requires an inward change, outward evidence. The old is supposed to die, and a new creature is born. In the other forum that talks about this subject, I referenced a verse that I found pertaining to eternally secure.
Can we backslide, turn away from God, or have dry seasons? Yes. Definitely. But once you become a child of God, you will always be his child. The question is, if a person is TRULY saved in the first place. You can't just confess, and think that's all. It's much more to it than that, that's only the beginning of your new birth. |
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kelly
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 232
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sat May 11, 2002 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But once you become a child of God, you will always be his child. |
We are all children of God, the saved and the unsaved. The rapist in jail is God's son, the woman who sells her body nightly is God's daughter, the drug addict with a needle in his arm is His son, the teenager who is driving drunk is his child. There is nothing we can do to "become" His child. What it is that we are called to do is be "Christ-like". Of course there are seasons we fall, but if we continue to seek Him, ask forgiveness, show a repentive heart, our salvation is guaranteed. Danielle, you say you believe you cannot lose your salvation, does that mean if my husband brings a co-worker to church, that co-worker stays for a few weeks, accepts Jesus into his heart, even makes some life changes for the better, but then starts to fall, stops attending church, starts up his bad habits again, even goes out one night and rapes a woman, hides, and never seeks God again, he is still saved? ??? |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2002 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Kelly,
It's interesting we are touching on this because me & my boyfriend had a recent discussion on this topic. I happen to believe that we are not all the children of God. My pastor explained in a recent message, that we are all God's CREATION, but not all of us are his children. And it makes sense to me, because how could some satan-worshipping, heavy metal artist (say Marilyn Mason) or a serial killer be considered a child of God? Can an atheist be a child of God as well? They don't even believe there IS a God. If these people approached you and claimed this, would you believe them? I just don't see how someone can be considered a child of God, if they are not living for him, and those who are living for him can also be considered his children as well. Especially those who worship Satan. The devil has children too.
Some verses to consider:
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children, then we are heirs---heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Rom 8:16
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not the child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3: 9-10 |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2002 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Oh!
Regarding your last comment Kelly, I don't know. I can only say that I believe in eternal security once a person is saved, and that only God knows if a person is TRULY saved since its a condition of the heart. Only that person and God know. |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2002 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can an atheist be a child of God as well? |
How about a Christian who later becomes a satan worshiper. Is he still saved?
Here is another resource on the aspect of our Security, to study the topic further, together with Biblical references.
click the word security |
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webacus
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Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 608
Location: Behind you.
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How about a Christian who later becomes a satan worshiper. Is he still saved? |
I would say, "No", due to the probability of that person blaspheming & disowning God and no longer believing in the "truth".
Other feedback? |
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Davep
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 11:53 am Post subject: |
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The answers to these what if questions don't seem to apply to someone who is practicing his/her faith. So we tend to think and apply the discussion to average Joe or Jane Christain.
But for a Christian who is attempting to explain his faith to someone new exploring the faith or a new believer, these questions are important. The once saved, always saved statement, does apply in most cases, so you're pretty safe in stating it in most Christain settings.
The goal of the Christian is to become Christ-Like, meaning we have an interest in working with the Holy Spirit, to reduce and eliminate our repertiore of sins. We all realize that this is a goal that we will never be successful at, but we know we are still accepted by God in our attempt. But for those who use or assume that the once saved, always saved statement means that they can be lazy or lukewarm, and can accordingly not repent of their habitual favorite sins, we need to have a more serious discussion.
:0 |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, I agree Davep. |
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SAM
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Joined: 03 Mar 2001
Posts: 1950
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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What about the person who gives their life to Christ on their deathbed? They have no time to bear fruit, they have no time to clean up their act, they have no time to do good works. God takes them just as they are.
Patterns of sin in our lives can resurface even after giving our life to Christ. Even new sin patterns can emerge. Does that means He disowns us and we are no longer his child. Let's go back to Peter denying Christ 3 times, did Peter lose his salvation? No! Let's think about the Prodigal Son, he we welcomed back with open arms and a celebration at that!
Losing our salvation doesn't happen. Questionning it happens a lot. Doubting not only where we are at, but where others are can tear down walls you have tried to build. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I definitely agree with you Sam. I do feel someone on their deathbed or even on death row about to face execution can see the kingdom if they have accepted Christ into their hearts. I definitely feel its a condition of the HEART. |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Our debate centers around whether the person is a true believer, not on whether they have produced any fruits; that is a whole other discussion.
| Quote: | | What about the person who gives their life to Christ on their deathbed? |
No problem here, the person is a believer. Salvation accrues to the believer. Is a believer always a believer? The person on his deathbed who accepts Christ, is, but is the person who is a practicing prostitute a believer? Is the man who has been having a steady affair for 5 years a believer, who has no interest in stopping?
The apostle Paul gives us a sobering and strong reminder about the consequences of the lifestyle we chose.. "If you live according to the flesh you will die,", he writes,"but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." Paul is not saying that Christians who are lax in their duty will suffer spiritual death. Rather he is distingushing between believers and unbelievers. - R.C. Sproul
Paul is saying that if you live like a non-Christian, dominated by your sinful nature rather than living according to the Holy Spirit, you will perish like a non-Christian -- because you are a non-Christian - Dr. James M. Boice.
| Quote: | | Let's go back to Peter denying Christ 3 times, did Peter lose his salvation? No! Let's think about the Prodigal Son, he was welcomed back with open arms and a celebration at that! |
These are interesting examples, because they came back to a true faith. What would have happen if Peter continued to denie Jesus? And what of the Prodigal son if he never return? Their salvation tracks with their belief. No belief no salvation. |
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