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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Danielle
I agree there are some ways of spotting christ-like qualities, but these are only indications of maturity.There is no way to determine how mature a person is, or if that person is a more mature christian than another, unless you are with them 24/7 and are privy to all their thoughts. And while one person may be more mature in several aspects of the christain life, it doesn't mean they are overall more mature. There are many mature looking christians, who appear to do and say the right things, who look very nice but have stop growing. Sure they read, they pray, they go to church; but their relationships with people, with family members, employees, friends suck. There are many non-christians who would appear to be christ-like, because of outward appearances. How many times have you encountered someone whom you have known for months or years, who you have just recently found out they are christian? Or better yet can you tell if a stanger is christian by what you see?
"You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence."
When someone does something unchrist-like, you may be seeing sin rather than lack of maturity. Also there are many many facets of the christian life, so many that we may be only able to see one or two; but you cannot measure all of them. But what is the purpose of measuring the maturity of other Christians in the first place?
Any christian can learn from any other christian regardless of any superficial scoring rank that we may place on them. Unfortunately the measurement of christian maturity often falls on how knowledgeable the person is about God rather than their knowledge of God and how it manifests itself in their dealing with their fellow man. We tend to evaluate the maturity level by how busy they are for the Lord, again the outside of the cup.
God's plan for us includes our walk, The Apostle Paul was killing christains for years; not a very mature person at the time. But maturity is a Holy Spirit thing, it is not dependant on the clock or the passage of time, or the aquistion of truths, or the performance of acts. While these maybe outward signs of something going on inside you cannot tally them up to score or rank one's maturity level.
Christian maturity is like the tip of an iceberg, your lucky if you are seeing 20%. :blush: |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Davep,
Yeah, I hear & understand what you are saying too. There is definitely a difference between a good man/woman who goes to church vs. a godly man/woman. Let me paint a different scenario, than what we have been talking about but still touches on maturity:
Let me ask, Do you believe that some messages that are preached may be "too much to handle" for certain believers, based on where they are in their walk? If person A is so far along in their walk with Christ (strong maturity) and person B is just the opposite, is it possible that person B may not receive the teachings that person A heard, because person B isn't that far in their walk yet?
For instance, my mom is attending a church where they have been preaching about some heavy-duty stuff that is all according to the Word. About holiness, and how the church really needs to get in order before Christ can come back for it, and other things. Having been in the Lord for a while, and mature in the faith, she is in a season in her walk where she has accepted these teachings and she is purging alot of things from her life (watching too much tv, etc.) to devote that time to God. She has shared that alot of things she has received, she would not share with just any Christian, because alot of it is a maturity, growth-thing. A person may not be at that point in their walk yet.
So let's say person B is fairly new in Christ, or he could not even not be a new believer, but one who has been in Christ, but has not been maturing & growing in their walk, they may not receive the same teachings. Only because it's to be expected since they are only a babe in Christ. The things that are being preached might not convict them in the same way someone who is more mature. Am I making any sense? |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Danielle
I think there are two very important aspects of this discussion. One is the maturity level of people to grasp and understand issues dealing with theology and doctrine topics, coming from the pastor's sermon, or worse yet re-hashing them over and over again with other christians. Versus number two which is the maturity level of the person which is measured by the level of manifestation by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which shows up in the person character and moral values they exhibit.
The Gospel is simple, as were many of the instructions we received from Jesus. I don't remember Jesus discussing all these topics that only a mature christian would understand. So why do so many christians preach a complicated Gospel? While doctrine and theology are very interesting, these aspects have in my opinion cluttered the christian life. We have over indulged in analysis paralysis, by focusing too much time on the but what if's of christianity. The ability to particapte in these discussions is more a function of one's interest level than one's maturity.
I have become aware of how to ride a bike, and drive a car, yet that knowledge doesn't make be a better driver, nor would debating it make me one either. I think we are mixing up academic maturity, that is the ability to understand involved theologic concepts, with social maturity, that is to behave in a christ-like mannor.
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
It wasn't just evil knowledge that God had a problem with us learning too much about, good knowledge was also on that tree. Likewise in my opinion mature christians should not attempt seek too much good knowledge at the expense of just simply learning better ways to apply their faith and the teachings of Jesus Christ each day.
One's maturity level to understand and accept complicated theology and doctrine concepts is only frosting on the cake. Living a christian life nor our salvation is concerned with all these extras. Again the information is interesting, but it has nothing to do with our real christian walk nor our real christian maturity, which is:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' and Love your neighbor as yourself."
If being mature in christ, means being able to handle a lot of heavy duty concepts then we have made a wrong turn somewhere on our christian walks. We are convicted by the Holy Spirit not by information we learn along the way.
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Davep,
I see your point too, yes--manifestation of the Spirit, definitely. And let's not forget that knowledge doesn't have anything to do with being mature, but being a doer of the word.
I do feel that one's maturity in Christ (meaning where they are at in their walk) does affect if they are open to act on certain teachings. It's not so much that there are topics that only a mature can understand, but ACCEPT and ACT on. Being a doer of the word, and not just a hearer, I guess it was I'm trying to say. The bible says to be renewed by the transforming of your mind. This transformation takes time as a person grows, is justified and santicified in Christ after converting & allowing the regenerating work of the Spirit in their life. So don't misunderstand, I'm not saying a complicated message is being preached necessarily, but how open that person is to accepting what is being preached.
Some of us might have our toes stepped on more than others when hearing a certain sermon in the body because we are more farther along in our walk than others.
Not saying it as a superior thing, but just a fact. If my new sister/brother in Christ still feels it's ok to go party, drink, curse, and smoke occasionally, it's because they have some maturing in Christ to do. We ALL do!  But some of us have more maturing to do than others, and the bible even talks about babes in Christ who are on milk and not solid food, so this is what I'm moreless talking about. See the verses below:
. 1Cor 3:2
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
2. Heb 5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
3. Heb 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Verse 1, in that Corinthians passage says "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ." (NIV)
So based on these, some of us just might not be "ready" for certain teachings, (as in practicing them, ready, not just hearing) based on where we are in our walk.  |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If my new sister/brother in Christ still feels it's ok to go party, drink, curse, and smoke occasionally, it's because they have some maturing in Christ to do. We ALL do! |
Now we are zooming in on the heart of christian maturity, which is the ability to be more Christ-like. But what you have highlighted isn't a function of theology or christian doctrine, what you have discribed is basic blocking and tackling.
Give me an example of something Jesus taught which is valuable to our christian walks, which a less mature believer would have a hard time accepting and/or understanding. The problem unfortunately is the Apostle Paul, Paul gave us way too much doctrine which again is important and interesting. But as christians we lose sight of the forest despite the trees. As christian we spend too much time analyzing the trees in the forest when the point is to understand the greater picture.
Also the first christians were the milk drinkers. but they didn't have what we have today, that is the Bible, the church, the biblical stories, the pastors, and other christians. There is far more awarenes of the existance of Jesus Christ now then in those times when the bible was written. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, being more-Christlike is essential.
But overall, my last post is talking about spiritual growth in general. Some of us won't become "Christ-like" right away since it involves growth. Even after we do achieve these certain qualities, we still have more growing to do.
Again, not so much the accepting & understanding but PRACTICING. 
But I even have to admit, alot of things I didn't understand before I now do about the Christian walk, because of growth & maturing that has to take place. It's a process. |
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Janine
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Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 360
Location: South Louisiana
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, y'all mustn't blame dear Paul for all that complicated theology! He had his simple moments, too: "Christ and Him crucified", "withstood Peter to his face"...
Even people still getting "milk" can have all that complicated theology & teaching spoon-fed to them. It's not too hard to show them how they might bring reproach on the Lord's church by cruising the cocaine-laced parties with a beer in one hand and a marijuana joint in the other... :crazy: |
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danielle
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 7:52 am Post subject: |
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I think also, that Jesus spoke in parables so that EVERYONE could understand, but there was no complete Bible yet like we have now, and there are alot of principles in the Bible that you come to learn, accept & follow with growth. We have to study to show ourselves approved, so if I'm conversing with another believer who doesn't study their Word (or a new believer who is just getting started) I can't expect them to understand the same things I do, if I've been disciplining myself with regular study and they haven't yet. I don't think their spirit will bear witness with my spirit. It might not make sense to them, and that is to be expected. Whereas with Jesus, he used parables as he worked to spread the good news to all. There is just so much knowledge to obtain from the Bible for life application, even when we are mature, we may have a different interpretation of a scripture we have read hundreds of times perhaps because of something we are experiencing in our life at that moment, so there is always something to learn.
"You never graduate from the Bible until you meet the author." |
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Davep
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | there are alot of principles in the Bible that you come to learn, accept & follow with growth. |
| Quote: | | I can't expect them to understand the same things I do |
What are a few of these principles that a new believer or so-called less mature christian would not pick up, or not be ready to understand given they both read the same passage of scripture?
Give me an example of something Jesus taught which is valuable to our christian walks, which a less mature believer would have a hard time accepting and/or understanding, because they have only started on the path of their christian walk? |
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danielle
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Davep:
I can't give you any specific examples. I just know that some things I would not be able to discuss with a new or less mature believer where they can totally understand (or act on) where I'm coming from given where they are in their walk. I can discuss with them, but they may not be at a point in their walk where they are following it, or even understand it fully. Whichever. It's to be expected. You can't expect someone in 1st grade to understand the homework lessons given to a 7th grader. Growth is needed, studying is needed. Am I that off base with this? And there are things that a 7th grader will not grasp coming from a 12th grader. It makes logical sense to me.
I mean there are some things my mom shares with me (and some not, I'm sure), that I don't understand, because I'm not "there yet" in my walk. She is a 50-yr old strong woman in Christ, so that's to be expected. I'm only 29. Life experiences, and reading his Word give us wisdom. So as you go through different life experiences that God throws you way in your walk, and as we grow by studying, praying, attending church, etc. you mature.
Again, solid food and milk are very different from each other. We all start out with milk, so an infant cannot eat solid food yet. They can't digest it. This is how I see mature and less mature believers. It's all a growth thing.
The life application bible that my friend has reads as this
regarding that Corinthians scripture:
"Certain elementary teachings are essential for all believers to understand. Those basics include the importance of faith, the foolishness of trying to be saved by good deeds, the meaning of baptism & spiritual gifts, facts of resurrection and eternal life. To go on to maturity in our understanding we need to move beyond (but not away from) the elementary teachings to move to a complete understanding of the faith, and this is what the author (Paul) is referring to. Mature Christians should be teaching new Christians the basics. Then, acting on what they know, the mature will learn even more from God's Word."
This is the commentary that I just sited. Jesus taught alot of basics in parables, that were easy for everyone to understand. But it doesn't stop there. We have to move beyond these to mature. And again, KNOWING or understanding something, and APPLYING on it are 2 different things.
Is any of this making sense? |
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Davep
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I just know that some things I would not be able to discuss with a new or less mature believer |
And those some things are 99 times out of 100, theology and doctrince things. Theology and Doctrine issues take alot of mental maturity let alone christian maturity. I would be willing to bet that when some topic or concept is being discuss that is hard to understand, it is going to involve theology and/or doctrine.
The problem is a lot of time christians equate christian maturity with more time with the Lord. Or more concepts they have picked up and can teach to someone else. But more often christains tend to equate it with someone who understands and can explain a lot of biblical stuff.
But the basic truths of the Bible are very easy too understand and communicate to young and old believer as well, regardless of one's physical or spiritual age. The Bible doesn't give us wisdom, but rather it unlocks the wisdom that God has already place in our creation. Satan and sin has clouded our vision to see what is already there.
If maturity plays a part it is in our awareness and desire to follow and obey what we already know needs to be done. The issues are very simple and basic, and a so-called mature christian is someone who has stop making up excuses and has stopped rationalizing their behavior, and who has decided on a joint venture with the Holy Spirit on every thought decision, they make.
Maturity is a concept dealing with the passage of time. In my opinion the issue is one's Christian Vision; and while maturity takes years, vision can be corrected almost immediately . The Apostle Paul's so-called maturity occurred when his vision was correct both spiritually and physically.
| Quote: | And again, KNOWING or understanding something, and ACTING on it are 2 different things.
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The ACTING and the daily application is the maturity. And this can be figured out by new believer or old believers, in either minutes or years. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi again Davep:
Let's just agree to disagree. PLUS, we've gotten way off topic
What I'm referring to has nothing to do with doctrine or theology, necessarily, but pure growth. Yes, the Bible does give basic truths, but as I stated, I'm referring to moving beyond the basics to fully mature in the faith.
"If maturity plays a part it is in our awareness and desire to follow and obey what we already know needs to be done. The issues are very simple and basic, and a so-called mature christian is someone who has stop making up excuses and has stopped rationalizing their behavior, and who has decided on a joint venture with the Holy Spirit on every thought decision, they make."
I don't think every believer "already knows" certain things. You learn things with growth in this walk, and that's the beauty of it! To think that I still have more to learn is an awesome thing to me; and I hunger for this everyday. Always learning, always growing, so I can't say I "already know what needs to be done" all of the time. Because I don't. Alot of it is a growth thing. Yes, I do agree that the Holy Spirit plays a major role in this, but again, I look at it as a journey where we are growing in our faith everyday, with his help. |
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Grace
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Joined: 24 May 2001
Posts: 90
Location: IL.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe we need to step back and realize that God will take care of the important issues. After reading all of your posts I realized that you all seem more concerned about others maturity levels than your own! Judging how mature someone else is in Christ is a good way for God to show you how immature you are. I think that instead of worrying about marrying someone as mature as ourself, we should wonder if we love him enough to do life together. Even when things get tough. God doesn't give you the things you plan for. It's the unexpected He uses to grow up us and our marriages. Grace |
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danielle
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Posts: 232
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Hi Grace,
I don't see it so much as "judging" one's maturity. Only God is the judge, but just assessing because that is very important to take into consideration when deciding to marry. I'm going to look for the fruits of the spirit. I feel that there can be spiritual age differences as well as physical, and I've talked to some Christians who are honest in saying that they need a mate who is either as mature or more mature then they are. I can understand where they are coming from, because you will be "like-minded" and more equally yoked.
But yes, we can always see where we need to grow as well! |
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Davep
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Posts: 463
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:17 am Post subject: |
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This topic could be rephrased - Should we marry someone who has the same spiritual tastes and interests as ourself?
You can both have the same spiritual interests and habits and not even be in the same ballpark when it comes to your christian maturity.You can have two people who appear similar in all respects, they enjoy the Lord, they pray together, read and study the bible together and on their own, enjoy discussing and exploring the scriptures, they enjoy fellowshipping with others, have quiet time etc etc. But still the two are not even close in their spiritual maturity.
Often when looking at someone's spiritual maturity, what you are actually seeing is their social maturity. |
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