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kelly
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 232
Location: Long Island, NY
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 Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2002 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| We are sending our kids to public school. Our daughter already started a public pre-school for therapy last semester. With all the "wordly" controversial stuff they do in public school, how do you seperate the kids from it? Halloween is an obvious one, we plan on keeping them home that day. But what about the Halloween projects they do for the week before? Halloween is just one example, anybody go through this already? Can anybody help us stay one step ahead and be prepared? |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Halloween is an obvious one, we plan on keeping them home that day |
Our holidays both Christian and pagan, have been intertwined over the years. When we become adults we become less interested in Halloween, Easter, and Christimas activies from the commercial side of things, but how do we now exclude them from our kids, when we enjoyed them?
Halloween
Halloween was an attempt by the Catholic Church to create a Christian holiday with a similar nature as a substitition for a pagan "Celebration of Death", in the hopes that the interest in the pagan holiday would drop off, and the Christian celebration would catch on and become more popular. It was orginally All Saints Day, to celebrate those Christians who died during the Roman Empires reign of terrior. All Saints Day, became All Hallowed Ones, and then eventually All Hallowed Evening, and then finally Halloween.
All the things we associate with our modern version such as Jack-O-Laterns, Trick or Treat, and Bobing for Apples are all Pagan Activities with a purpose and a history to them. They are not christian inventions.
But Halloween isn't the only Holiday that would have to be eliminated.
Christmas
One thing we all know is that Jesus wasn't born in the winter and not December 25th. In fact the actual date is not known. Early converts to Christianity enjoyed their festive annual celebrations, just as we enjoy the BBQ of the Fourth of July, Veterans Day, etc. These early christians didn't want to give up their days to celebrate, so once again the church developed a substitue for the very popular Roman Holiday of Saturnalia. which was celebrated on the Winter Solstice - December 25th.
This pagan holiday was popular and included gift giving, torch lighting, and decoration of the home of green. Later other pagan customs found there way in, as early Christians wanted the best of both worlds, these were Mistletoe, the Yule Log, Yuletide or the Twelve Days of Christmas, and Eves, and Santa Claus. Yes even Santa has his roots in pagan customs, even though there was attempt to make him Saint Nicholas. Even the Christmas Tree is a pagan based, everygreen trees have been worshipped as symbols of life, fertility, sexual potency and reproduction, and were often brought into the house and set up as idols.
In colonial America there were no Christmas celebrations; and as recently as 100 years ago such observances and celebrations were against the law (as being pagan and a reproach to the Lord) in many parts of the United States, including most of New England.
Easter
Easter is the one Holiday which does fall around the time of Jesus's resurrection. Early Christians celebrated Passover for the simple fact that is what Jesus celebrated just before his death. But there was no formal Easter Holiday, rather the Christian Passover Celebration was already in place and working fine.
So what happen? Because springtime was during the pagan practices of celebrating new life, fertility and the return of growing things each year at the same time, the Pagan Holiday of Easter merged with the Christian Passover Celebration. Easter is the Anglo-Saxon Goddess of Spring, Fertility and New Life.
Egg-laying rabbit and eggs have since ancient times been worshipped as sex and fertility gods by pagans.
Valentines Day
The date February 14th comes down to us from the Roman fertility rites (Lupercalia), and from the belief in medieval times that birds mated on February 14th. Cupid was the pagan sex and fertility god of Rome. And "St. Valentine" we now speak of as the patron saint of lovers was probably several different men, blended into one image. He (they) had nothing to do with the popular observances we know today as Valentine's Day.
The Catholic Church and Christianity in general get slammed, by un-believers as being a pagan based religion. The problem was before there were Christians, the populations were pagan. So early on, even though new Christians were adding to their faith, a belief in God and Jesus Christ, they also brought along a lot of their old pagan practices. Funny isn't that what many of us do today.
GAL 4:8-11
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
So what does one do, what do we tell our kids? Does it all go are do we get to pick?  |
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SAM
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Joined: 03 Mar 2001
Posts: 1990
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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My kids, unfortunately, have attended public schools.
It has been a day to day struggle. As each event would come up, it was a matter of discussing it with them.
As for Halloween, we had a discussion about what it meant, why it was not something we wanted to celebrate. Homes in our area are decorated as much with Halloween stuff now as
Christmas stuff.
I sincerely thought about pulling my children out of the classroom on Halloween, but I did talk with their teachers each year about our faith. I asked that they be allowed to do different types of projects, even talked with the Principal about this. The school realized they needed to give the kids a choice on all of the Halloween projects the week before. They were allowed to draw or do things in colors other than orange and black and participate in things that were fall like and made them look forward to the season. As for costumes, they always had to pick something that was not satanic. It could be a cheerleader, princess, mickey mouse - something like that. Not a devil, not a witch, not a vampire.
My husband and I were very new to our faith when our kids were young. I look at the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus differently too. As they grew older, these things went away and we had a greater concentration on our Savior - Jesus Christ. I chose to tell them these things are all make believe as soon as they could understand. I did not take them to see the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus at the mall. |
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kelly
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 232
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I am very aware of the origins of most of the holidays as I did some research last year. As Sam mentioned, we also do not celebrate the holidays as the rest of the world does. Our kids do not believe in the easter bunny or santa. They know make-believe is not real. Only Jesus is real. We stress the importance of each holiday and it's meaning in Christ. Although Christmas technically falls at the wrong time of year, it is still a celebration of His birth.
Back to my original question, Sam, how did you approach these teachers about your concerns, beliefs, etc? I don't want my kids to be looked down on b/c I make a big deal in school, yet I am not willing to compromise either. ??? |
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SAM
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Joined: 03 Mar 2001
Posts: 1990
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Send a sealed note with your child to the teacher explaining your position. Ask the teacher to call you to discuss the situation. If they don't call you within a day or two, which can happen, then call the school and ask to speak with them.
We found, more than once, that the teacher God had given us for our child were believers themselves. One year, we had a teacher ask us to pray for her and her classroom. |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion. I don't have children (or even married) just yet, but me & my bf have often discussed how we plan to celebrate certain holidays when we have kids.
He feels that when they are very young, and are not able to yet understand the significance or the meaning that it should not be a big deal to let them believe in Santa & the Easter bunny. It's a normal part of childhood kind of thing that they should be able to experience. I mean it was fun trying to stay awake for Santa, etc. So he doesn't feel they shouldn't be able to experience that at all. But once they are at an age (4-5) where we can sit down & explain to them what mommy & daddy believe we will do that. For Halloween he would like to only take them to houses in the neighborhood--people we know. See them get dressed in their cute custom & get some candy from a couple of houses. He doesn't want the children to feel like outcasts because children can be cruel and its not a good feeling having to be left out of things.
I can see his point and I agree to an extent. But again, once they reach around age 4 they will be told the family's beliefs, etc. Also, something that I read about Halloween & Christians hit home for me. We can use those certain pagan holidays to our advantage and not just sit at home closed-off from the world. We can get out and let our light shine. We can get out and witness. Pass out tracts. That's what my mom did to the neighbor kids when I was in highschool--she would give out tracts when they came to our door vs. putting up a note saying to pass us by because we don't celebrate it. We can always turn a negative into a positive for Christ. Perhaps as I'm taking my child door-to-door, I will give tracts to the parents as well. A little something for them. Now that's a treat, no trick! |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 11:33 am Post subject: |
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This stuff gets confusing.
All three Holidays have Christian versions.
If the Halloween practices of candy, custumes and trick-or-treating are out, then why is there a double standard for the Pagan Holiday's practices of gift giving, lights, decorations, and the tree? And Easter? Why do we use a Pagan Name at all? at least Halloween and Christmas are Christian replacements for pagan holidays.
If it OK to have a tree, lights and gift giving because we have reformulated a prior pagan holiday into a Christian one, then why can't a kid enjoy the reformulated Christian holiday of Halloween? And the same with Easter; although I would have to admit the name should be changed.
If we have rationalized the Roman Holiday of Saturnalia and converted it into Christmas, why not with Halloween which was originally converted? |
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kelly
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 232
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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First, Danielle, let me share why we are not allowing our kids to believe in all the fairy tale creatures...if you allow them to believe in these fictional characters, and even fire their imaginations and beliefs by encouraging them to believe and playing along, don't you think they may be upset with you and confused when the time comes to tell them the truth? You say you plan on telling the the truth around 5 or 6, this is when they are very wrapped up in fairy tales and imaginations. They will be in school with friends who believe in Santa and having believed for the first 5 or 6 years, thier hearts may break to have to hear the truth. They may become skeptical about Jesus and lose trust in Him, and in you. You will be teaching them at an early age what a lie is, what deception is. If it was ok for mommy and daddy to lie, or pretend, or decieve, they may learn it is an ok habit for them to pick up. Also, if santa isn't real, how do I know Jesus is? How can I trust mom and dad when they tell me to stop believing in santa, but to still believe in Jesus? Just some thoughts to meditate on and pray about. Oh, and as far as the fun of looking forward to Christmas morning and all, my kids look forward to it with just the same enthusiasm as other kids do, except our kids look forward to it b/c they enjoy giving out presents they have made or picked out for others and they look forward to celebrating Jesus' birthday and having cake!
Dave, I think you have lost me in your last post. You're right, Easter shouldn't be called Easter, and actually we don't. We have started calling it "Resurrection Sunday" and we do not do the basket of candy/bunny thing. We tell the kids what the day is and we spend it with family to celebrate. We try to keep it as Christian and non-pagen as possible. Christmas we do get the tree, but our house only has a few lights. We bake a cake for Jesus and sing "Happy Birthday" to Him. This way they know what Christmas really is. The lights are just extra party decorations! We do exchange gifts, but not many and it is explained to the kids that we do this b/c Jesus likes for us to share and give gifts to others, so instead of Him getting gifts on His birthday, we give out gifts and this makes Him happy. Again, we try to keep it as non-commercialized as possible. Halloween we just ignore completely b/c of all the crap that goes on. There's no Christian reason to celebrate it. As far as having fun and not missing out on anything, we go out for the day and out for dinner. The day passes without the kids missing anything. |
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Davep
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Joined: 02 Apr 2002
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Kelly
You have certainly done your homework and have come up with solid replacements for worldly activities. Christmas and Easter seem to have enough to stay. Is there any way to make Halloween work? Work in such a way that the kids can enjoy their youth? Maybe dress them up as Noah, or Joseph or Mary? Can I get a witness
:rolleyes:
What about Valentine's Day and the kid passing and sharing candy?
| Quote: | | if you allow them to believe in these fictional characters |
Now there is a statement to think about. What other fictional characters do our kids believe in only to find out later they're not real.
Maybe this is a way to get rid of Barney |
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SAM
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Joined: 03 Mar 2001
Posts: 1990
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Oh no, not Barney! 
Kelly that is great information. We were not believers when our children were young, but it sure was a struggle with our oldest daughter for a little while. The youngest one adapted to the changes more easily. |
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kelly
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002
Posts: 232
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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LOL at Dave! What's the matter with Barney??
I have always been honest in everything with my kids. They know that even the characters on T.V. are people in costumes. Of course in thier little minds there are some characters that they enjoy and don't understand as cartoons (such as, much to my dismay, Sponge Bob Squarepants). Costumes they seem to understand and aren't all that amusd by, but animation greatly holds thier attention. That's ok though. They'll get it when they start to wonder how cartoons can blow up and light fires under the water and get away with it!
As far as Halloween goes, I understand where you are coming from with dressing up as biblical characters, but to be honest, there just isn't any reason for it. What would I tell them the point is? It has nothing to do with Jesus or anybody in our family. They understand celebrations as special occasions wiht meaning. They really won't be scarred for life b/c they don't dress up one day a year and go trick-or-treating with vampires and ghosts! Last year we went out to eat at Chuck E Cheese's and when we saw kids in wierd costumes, we explained to our oldest (the only one who cared or noticed last year) that this particular day some kids dress up in weird costumes to get candy from people. My 4 year old daughter asked, "Well, why doesn't thier mommy and daddy just go to the store?". Good question! We bought them a bag of candy that night for them to eat all to themselves and that was thier "Halloween". |
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Grace
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Joined: 24 May 2001
Posts: 90
Location: IL.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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My kids also go to the public school. At first this was a huge concern. After reading about the history of these holiday's then, and now reading dave's posts on the halloween and other holiday's, I concur that this is a topic that gets to sticky. I think if you keep the focus to a minimum, what's wrong with them fitting in? Peer pressure is a huge deal, even at that age.
I know that we are called to be different, but I dressed up like a clown when I was 3. I turned out ok. It would be a shame not to let my kids enjoy the magic of childhood for a few years. I don't want to make my kids hate Christianity because it's " no fun". It says in Phil. 4 to be joyful. Ecc. says to be joyful, sing, dance, etc. I want my kids to too. |
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Anthony
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Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Additional Reading:
Halloween - Questions and Answers
Dr. Dobson - Focus on the Family
Halloween is a rather different story. Whereas it can be argued that Christmas is a Christian holiday with Christian origins that has suffered the effects of growing secularism, Halloween can be traced to distinctly pagan sources. It is reasonable, then, that many believers would find some aspects of its celebration disturbing. I agree with them in that regard. The traditional emphasis upon the occult, witches, devils, death, and evil sends messages to our kids that godly parents can only regard with alarm. There is clearly no place in the Christian community for this "darker side" of Halloween.
Even here, however, there is a place for some harmless fun. Kids love to dress up and pretend. If the Halloween experience is focused on fantasy rather than the occult, I see no harm in it. Make costumes for your children that represent fun characters, such as Mickey Mouse or an elderly grandmother, and then let them go door-to-door asking for treats. This side of Halloween can be thoroughly enjoyable for the little ones.
Let me add, again, that I've given you my personal opinion. I realize that the topic is controversial among committed Christians, and I'm sensitive to the reasons for their misgivings. My final word to parents on the subject would be "Stay true to your own convictions." |
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danielle
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 8:37 am Post subject: |
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"I know that we are called to be different, but I dressed up like a clown when I was 3. I turned out ok. It would be a shame not to let my kids enjoy the magic of childhood for a few years. I don't want to make my kids hate Christianity because it's " no fun".
I'm with Grace on this one! I would hate for my kids to feel like outcasts, eventhough I know we are called to be separate from the world & everything. I just don't want them to feel so separated. It's rough out there even at that young of an age.
You made some good points Kelly, but I do want my children to enjoy these childhood things. They are just a normal part of it. I was meaning when they are around 4-5, I will explain to them the REAL meaning of certain holidays when they are able to understand. I will not just come out and say "there is no Santa, stop believing in him." They probably won't stop believing in him until around the same age that everyone stops as well. But at ages 1 & 2, they aren't able to really comprehend this, so I just want them to have fun. They don't know the history behind the holiday at that young of an age, to them it's just something fun to do.
I believed in Santa, tooth fairy, my favorite cartoon characters, I went trick-or-treating (my mom wasn't a Christian just yet until my teen years), went on easter egg hunts, etc. and look at me. I turned out just fine, and in fact many of my peers & even my pastor have said that I'm "wise beyond my years" as far as my walk w/ Christ goes. Once Christ entered into my heart in 8th grade, I've had a close walk with him since. So I'm just saying all that to say that even if you do believe in those childhood fantasies (or allow your children to), this will not deeply affect one's relationship w/ God down the road. Jesus is more powerful than any ficitional character, so I just don't see any lasting scars taking place if my children are allowed to enjoy those rituals for a minute. Now I also think you have to know your child too. If they are very impressionable, etc. And you have to be careful as parents of course, what you allow your children to indulge in. For instance, the whole Harry Potter thing was something I didn't care for. It was clearly the occult. So you do have to use wisdom & judgement.
Granted, I plan to make those holiday less commercialized, and place more emphasis on Christ, but I really don't see any harm if they believe in those things when very young. It's just a normal part of childhood. I also think that a person can take things just a little too far. For instance I remember doing a report in high school on violence in tv, and it was based on this book called "Turmoil in the toybox." It found occult-related findings for just about every toy out there---smurfs, care bears, etc. I just thought that was a little too far thinking back. A little kid playing with a care bear or watching the smurfs are not going to give it a 2nd thought while are playing/watching this. I just think you have to know when to draw the line too.
On a funny note, I even knew as a child that my mom was Santa because the handwriting on the gifts looked just like hers! |
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Janine
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Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 360
Location: South Louisiana
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I don't think my parents wrote on our "Santa" gifts... they appeared under the tree, unwrapped, in a separate pile for each child, obviously belonging to the one they were appropriate for (the baby sister was years behind the older two, I was a tomboy, sister 2 was "girly", I always wore pinks & reds, sister 2 wore purples, periwinkles...).
My husband has flat-out stated from day one that a child who is fed the Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy thing will wonder whether the invisible God is real, as well, when it comes time to wonder. ("Well, Mom and Dad lied to me about one guy who can see me when I'm sleeping and know when I'm awake and know if I've been bad or good...") We suffer no lack of opportunities for healthy fantasy and imagination and dress-up play around here, since we have Mardi Gras ... just don't go to a parade, especially in the larger cities, if you want "healthy" imagination... and with Fat Tuesday, you can really demonstrate old pagan traditions getting adopted and done up beautifully by Christian culture, then ruined by the evils of the worldy...
We homeschooled our two oldest in the earliest grades, and when the youngest was in K-1st-2nd, we worked with his public school teachers to come up with "harvest/thanksgiving/fall color" materials rather than outright gruesome things or evil beings drawn "cute".
After they all got older, and we were sure they would be able to articulate their beliefs about these matters, we didn't worry much about it any more.
Any time a worksheet, special event or speaker, or school celebration of any sort, supported ideas of any religious type, we either took it and ran and supported it, if it was Christian or Judeo-Christian or just plain moral... or, if something came up that glorified a pagan religion, we pointed out what our concerns were. We would then either keep the kids out, or let the kids stay with appropriate adjustments of the material they'd be expected to work on...
Sometimes when something arises in the public school that blatantly promotes a pagan or cultic religion, it's an opportunity to press for "my religion to get 'equal time' as well!"  |
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