Leadership and submissiveness - Who leads and who submits?

kelly · Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 7:38 am Post subject:

I have seen it posted many times on this board, as well as others, that there have been times the wife has been the spiritual leader in the marraige. I know sometimes the wife needs to support and encourage when her husband may be slacking, but to actually be the leader? I am curious, who is the leader in your household? Who submits? How seriously do you take the roles in your household?

Janine · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:28 am Post subject:

Every Christian is supposed to submit to another in various ways. ("Submit yourselves one to another...")("Thinking of others more highly than yourselves...").

And, surely, there are elements of relationship in daily life, in the Christian walk, in group Christian life/corporate worship, where you can look at the Bible and safely strip away some culture-related stuff.

But, when you boil it down, get to the nuts and bolts of life, there remains something about male leadership that God has designed.

Something with two heads is a freak. Someone must bear the ultimate decision-making when conflict arises, if the corporation or the family or the baseball team can't come to a consensus-agreement.

That someone also is the one slapped down when the decisions aren't right, the one who has to explain to the stockholders or to God or to the parents of the players, why the decisions were made that led to bankruptcy, failure, loss...

When the priest-sons of Eli were evil, God did not call their mother to account; it was Eli that God considered a failure. Whatever blame Mom might've been due, wasn't the reason why the "boys" were punished. Whatever personal responsibility she and the sons bore was not the main failure. It was Eli that had to take the scourge, so to speak, as well as the sons, who were the ones who did the active sinning.

kelly · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:19 am Post subject:

I agree whole-heartedly that the husband should have the leadership role. This is an awkward statement to make in today's "equal rights" society, but a strong stand in our Christianity that needs to be made, and made more often. How many wivws really submit to thier husbands though? How many husbands take thier leadership role seriously? There are many married couples here, and some ready for marraige...do you/will you really submit to your husbands? Although he should consult with you on matters that need an opinion as he is leader, not Hitler, does he make the final decisions, and are you ok with that even when you don't agree? Are you really living by the bible's guidlines or does it just sound good? Time for an honest evaluation... :rolleyes:

Janine · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:35 am Post subject:

Here's the last "serious" thing I wrote on the subject, mostly for a couple of friends struggling on both ends of the issue. Let me know if y'all get anything out of it:

"No one likes digging up the Greek on pivotal passages more than I. No one looks for situational & cultural elements in the direction given the church women in Corinth, with more interest than I.

"But... (there's another on of my portentious, devil's-advocating, three-story-high-neon-purple-sequined-and-vanilla-scented BUTS...) When Paul said his bit- to Timothy?- about women and men having differently formed/defined roles in group spiritual activity, the main thing he went back to on which to base his point was this: Eve was deceived into sin. Not Adam. Adam walked eyes-wide-open into rebellion; Eve thought & looked & discussed & considered how to better her lot, herself, her way, without God.

"Paul wasn't looking at any cultural norms or local incidents or customs having the weight of law that had to be patiently gotten around until the bided time accomplished change... he was looking back to two real people who each found their own gender-influenced style of entering into sin, and basing the instructions he was giving Timothy for how to educate the church, upon that.

"I'm all for stripping away man-made trash that stands between me & my God. I can see plan as day the unnecessary, protect-my-cultural-comfort-level-at-all-costs things that have been done in the name of gender roles in the church. I have seen, the same as anyone else with a little sense & sensitivity can see, abuses and wasted potential, spirits crushed and souls going unconverted, due to misapplication & wrong emphasis on things having to do with gender roles in the church.

"The answer to that is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We don't throw out Christianity because some idiot kings & popes thought the Crusades or the Inquisition were a good idea. Neither should we throw out a valid Scriptural principle (male Christian leadership, whatever that means in any individual context) because it has been misused or beacuse we in the 21st century West find it repugnant.

"I'm sure there has always been something repugnant to the world in Christianity. From the all-too-human delivery of a bloody, squalling, lizardy-looking newborn God, to the gruesome and shameful crucifixion, onward to the irritating insistance we Christians maintain on the idea of "crucifying" ourselves and living "others-first".

"Just 'cause an idea is awkward or doesn't seem to fit any more is no reason to chuck it... and I'm convinced that's why most people who don't like the idea of Man as Head under Christ want to chuck it."

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

What really lies underneath this topic is that women want their husbands to be more spiritually active. They want a husband who is a spiritual coach, mentor, or cheerleader of the family.

But what is Leadership?

Leadership is a process of getting things done through people. - Boy Scouts of America

Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many - Jesus Christ

The husband that would truly be the head of his household must be a servant - R.P. Nettelhorst Leadership, Servanthood, and Submission

The basic issue with Kelly's question, is "are christian women using a secular definition of leadership", rather than Jesus' definition of leadership defined by is actions? After all wasn't Jesus the best CEO of all time?

A leader recognizes talent, and uses that talent for the common good. If the wife is performing a lot of household christain tasks and she loves it, a good leader would recognize and cultivate her actions. It doesn't have to be the husband's idea. If the wife is bringing in a lot good Godly ideas activities into the family, the husband as a wise and good leader, would recognize the wifes achievement. Good leaders surround themselves with good talented people. I think the problem with this topic is that christian women in general would like to see their husbands come up with more of the ideas or at least an equal amount.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose - RO 8:28

What is Submission?

Submission is a function of Love and Respect. Again we tend to use secular definitions for a biblical concept. To determine his definition we need to search scriptures for his answer.

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. - RO 8:7-8

kelly · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:17 pm Post subject:

Dave, you are right in that we want our husbands to "have more ideas". Somewhere imbedded inside me is the desire to have my husband lead me, make decisions, come up with "ideas" to help our family grow. This is not to mean that I want to be a bump on a log, I myself have talents and gifts that Jason doesn't, however, I believe God has given me a heart to submit to my husband. He has a hard time leading right now as I do have a very strong personality and he tends to ask me my opinion, let me make the decisions, leave the leading of spiritual activities to me. This is frustrating for me who wants to submit! I do believe God has us wives submit for reasons known,and even unknown. That is His order, but like Dave said, how many Christians are "updating" God's Word and placing a modern application to God's order to submit? This is why I asked the personal question, how many of you are currently putting into effect the lead and submit roles? How does it work in your household? How could it be better? I think my Jason has a hard time leading, besides b/c I have a strong personality that he has come to rely on, because he is a bit caught up in society and just can't see himself being a leader who has someone submitting to him. It all sounds so old fashioned, so sexist. Who of you actually goes agianst the grain here and has a lead-submit marraige in effect? Have you ever been persecuted for it? Our two closest role models for it stink. One has it backwards and the wife controls while the husband allows her anything she wants to avoid conflict, and the other takes his leadership role to extremes where his wife cannot do anything she wants. He has put her into the wife/mother/homemaker role and that is it for her. (SIGH)

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

If a man is lazy, the rafters sag;
if his hands are idle, the house leaks.- ECC 10:18

If you want a husband who will eventually become the spiritual leader, you must search for one with the right materials to build one with in the first place.

Also what do you women want?

Are you looking for a husband to lead in developing the christian activities? Starting and leading prayer, starting a program of reading the bible with you? Do you want him to read the Bible to the kids?

Is a husband as a spiritual leader like cheese in a cheeseburger? When it's there you don't notice it, but when it's missing you do notice that it's not in there.

Is a husband as a spiritual leader like having a romantic husband who brings you flowers and a card when it isn't expected.

Is a husband as a spiritual leader like have a social director who plans out cool activities and events?

Can a husband who is a spiritual leader, be someone who just shares good christian values with his family in words and actions?

Assignment for the Women
Describe a fictional husband, write and employment AD, what the ideal husband spiritual leader would look like, act like, and do. Give us guys a blueprint of what it is you are looking for. Also include the job requirements and pay Smile

kelly · Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:16 pm Post subject:

I don't mean leader in that he does everything. I mean leader in that he makes the final decisions, he makes sure things are getting done like they should, he makes sure we are growing and not slipping.

That ad assignment sounds like fun. I will try to find time to think it out and post. Very Happy

Jujubee · Junior Member Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Posts: 29

This is my very first post here.

I have real trouble with this topic. I, too, believe that the woman should submit herself to her husband. But I have a hard time doing that on any level. I want him to be the leader, but I just cant seem to let go of the leadership role.

A little background. My DH works 2nd shift. (3-11pm) So during the school year, I am the only parent the kids see, except on weekends. And it seems like on the weekends I either go to far, or not far enough. What I mean is this. I still try to "rule the roost" or I don't do enough to help hubby. Can someone please give me some advice? How can I be a good parent all the time, without usurping hubby's leadership on the weekend? How do I "turn over the reign's of leadership" on Sat and Sun? HELP!

Janine · Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:20 am Post subject:

Talk, talk, talk to him about wanting him to lead. Get him good books by authors you respect & hand him highlighted copies, always with Scripture references.

Pray, pray, pray in support of him and what you hope to get out of him as family head.

My husband was falling into that never-see-the-kids, late-shift mode. He left what might have been the best job of his life, one he wishes in a way he still had 'cause it takes less toll on the body, because he refused to let his kids grow up without his hand on them. He refused to leave me in the defacto single mom position.

You could also homeschool and put the whole family on Dad's schedule.

Just a few thoughts. God bless you.

danielle · Full Member Joined: 19 Apr 2002 Posts: 232

I can't wait to submit to my husband AS LONG AS he is submitting to Christ first! God has designed some very unique roles within marriage for divine reasons & purposes.

Something I've reflected on recently....isn't it beautiful how Adam had an established relationship with God, and then Eve entered the picture? With this in mind, I think it's a wonderful thing if a man has an intimate relationship with God FIRST, and then he marries. This all the more equips him for a leadership role (even though Adam failed at this tremendously ??? )

Question though, is a wife still expected to submit if the husband is not leading her in Christ? Both are believers, but he is not allowing God to be the head of the marriage. Then what?

Janine · Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:36 pm Post subject:

"Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church..." Sacrificially. Willing to die for her, or harder yet, to live for her.

"let the wife repsect her husband..." It's awfully hard to 'feel' love for a husband you cannot respect.

**************

I haven't ever seen anywhere that said I could wait until my husband got things right before I began to operate out of that submissive/supportive wife mode.

If you cannot follow him to Heaven, don't marry him.

If it's too late for that consideration, if you're already married or determined to marry, then go into the "winning-him-without-a-word" zone.

You be the spiritual one in the home if necessary... you go on about your Christian business and make the best home for him that anyone ever could make. If he's allowed to enjoy the beautiful results that come of you being submitted to God first, then submitted to him as long as he doesn't come between you & God, he may just shape up for you.

And, if he never does, at least you will have been giving God His due honor.

Jujubee · Junior Member Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Posts: 29

I didn't make myself clear enough. The problem in my home is not our husband.....it's me. He wants to lead...he tries to lead. But I seem to always be in the way. I have to continually fight the desire to "correct" what he says to the kids. Or to tell him that "we don't usually do it that way". I struggle daily to be a godly wife. And a struggle it is. Any advice?

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

What does an ideal spiritual leader look like, act like, and do? Concrete examples and descriptions?

:blush:

danielle · Full Member Joined: 19 Apr 2002 Posts: 232

Jujubee:
I once heard one of my favorite radio preachers say "Get out of the way, so the Holy Spirit can knock him over."

My advice would be to visit your local Christian bookstore and buy 2 powerful books by Stormie Omartian. One, called "The Power of a Praying Wife" and the other is "The Power of a Praying Husband." Hide away in your prayer closet and give your husband the other book so he can pray as well. Often when we intercede for others, God shows US what we need to change as well, so be prepared. She also has a "Power of the Praying Parent" book as well. She is awesome from her own personal experiences of being a wife & mother. I'm sure that as long as you allow God to be at the head of your marriage and you both are submitting & following him, he will lead you to fulfill your unique roles he designed within marriage. Prayer changes things, and the Holy Spirit has awesome power!

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