Eternal Security? - Can you lose your salvation? ...

webacus · Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:58 pm Post subject:

From previous post...

kelly · Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 9:24 am Post subject:

Wow, touchy Webacus! Here's my input...

When we accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour we are saved, redeemed by the blood He shed for us. When we ask for forgiveness we are forgiven. However, there still is plenty of work for us to do to "upkeep" our salvation. There is nothing we can do to earn it as we are all sinners, but it was given to us as a gift. We need to take care of that gift though, not throw it away. Hebrews 4:1 tells us that we will be judged, as well as Psalms 9:19, Proverbs 27:21, Ezekiel 36:19, Matt. 7:1, Romans 3:4, 1 Cor. 11:32, James 5:9, Rev. 11:18, and Rev. 20:13. God is a forgiving, loving God, but He is also a just God. He hates hypocrites. Matt. 23:23 condemns hypocrites for not having hearts in the right place. Mark 7:6 says that "...thier hearts are far from me", He is speaking of the hypocrites. Hypocrites will be judged and condemned...

I guess to answer your question, yes, we need to keep up with our salvation. We can ask forgiveness with our words, but if it's not really in our hearts God will know and we'll be seen as hypocrites. We can give away money and do good works, show up in church every week and sing, but if our hearts "are far from Him" we are hypocrites that will one day be judged. We don't need to be perfect, just have the right heart to go along with the right actions. We know right from wrong, and so does He...

I said it the best I can, it's a greyish area I guess...I look forward to reading other inputs Smile

webacus · Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 11:52 am Post subject:

Okay... is it possible to be saved, and then "lose" your salvation? :dozingoff:

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

What makes one saved?

Faith in Jesus Christ.

What is that faith, a simple one time statement? Faith is not an insurance policy that we take out once in our life time, and wait until we die to collect. Faith is not an event it is a living process. And like any living process it must be taken care of or it dies. Our faith must be a living faith, not a static merit badge.

Just as love is not a one time event, it too much be cared for and thought of daily, so is true with our faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith is not something we bought at the store, and now store on the shelf for a rainy day.

Smile

webacus · Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:43 pm Post subject:

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

I wouldn't say that faith is like gasoline in the gas tank of one's car, something you can measure and know if you have enough of. But on the other hand Faith is not a certification that once stated, is stored in your safety deposit box like it was a warranty. Unfortunately I feel a lot of people take it for granted that they have faith, how do they know?

How do you define a Christian? Some one who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? Where do you do this; down at the post office, at church, or do you mail it in? While there are those who accepted Jesus later on in life, what about those who knew Jesus all their lives, since they were kids? No one is born a christian, yet many feel they were. The problem in the United States, being a christian is assumed to come with birth or citizenship.

We all know the significant dates in our life. How many people know the day they accepted Jesus Christ? Many do, because they came to Jesus later on in life, and it was an emotional momment. But how many others feel they accepted Jesus Christ simply because they have a convenient belief that Jesus is the son of God and that he rose from the dead, and that he died for our sins yada yada yada, like is was some sort given because that is what they alway heard people tell them.

How many Christians believe in Macro-Evolution, simply because that is what they alway heard people tell them was the truth? If it faith alone and Grace alone which bring us together with God, then I for one want to make sure, that my faith is 100% real, I'm not one to take chances here, too much is resting on it.
:rolleyes:

Beyond justification which is the past, i.e. we were saved, there is the present; sanctification being saved, and finally in the future, there is glorification when we will be saved.

I look at it this way, yes we were accepted into college, but did you graduate? Being saved is only the beginning of the process.
Wink

webacus · Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 3:40 pm Post subject:

kelly · Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 5:43 pm Post subject:

First, having faith to me is believing though unseen, trusting although there is no gaurantee of the results. Many people say they believe b/c it's been what they have been told. They are numb to it. I agree with what Davep said. The word faith is thrown around too much, too easily. When you see someone suffering through a hard time, you know by thier fruits they have little true faith. When you see someone holding strong and remaining at least somewhat calm, you know they have a peace that comes from trusting God, from having real faith.

Now, the $64,000.00 question (Can I get it in large bills please? Very Happy

)...

I'm not so sure you know you are saved until the end, until rapture. I believe I am saved, but I know others who think so too, but are sinning in many ways they don't even recognize. The bible says "...those that endure to the end" are saved Matt. 10:22 and Matt. 24:13. I understand this to mean that you take your Christianity seriously, you LIVE Christ, not just enjoy it as a passing phase. Mark 16:16 says, "He who believes..." which is a judgment of our heart condition. Do you TRULY believe? If you have doubts, bring it before God and work on it. Acts 16:31 also says to believe. Guess God is really testing our faith to believe in Him even though we can't see Him...

In conclusion, you have to believe and stand strong I guess in order to be saved. If you don't back down on your faith, if you stand up for God, if you willingly endure whatever it takes to please Him, if your whole life rests with Him, then you are saved. Now, being saved does have it's "levels". You may end up in Heaven, but your treasures there may not be as numerous as your neighbors. I believe some are going to Heaven, but only have a shack to look forward to as they "hid" thier Christianity, they didn't give as much as they could have, or they harbored sin in thier heart against someone. On the other hand, someone who dedicated thier whole life to the ministry of Christ, someone who had it in thier heart to forgive and love, someone who gave freely, they may have a mansion in Heaven filled to the brim with crowns...

Being saved is the easy part I guess, you only have to believe, and stay a believer. To gain treasures in Heaven, however, you need to live just as we are told to, in love, forgiving, giving, witnessing, etc...I know I'd rather know I'm saved with the perks, with God's favor down here on earth as well as building my treasures in Heaven!

webacus · Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:38 pm Post subject:

Kelly, I agree with your assessment of faith – and Dave you too.

As for the BIG question...

I think Matt. 24:13 refers to the end times... not sure if that’s applicable [?]. And Matt. 10:22, I miss the reference. Please clarify for me.

As far as the ‘believe’ verses – I agree. It’s head knowledge PLUS a heart condition.

I agree with there being different ‘levels’ of heaven, can’t remember the scripture reference.

I’ve always thought of Christianity this way: I think the Bible offers a ‘spiritual equation’ that says Believe, Receive and Become.

You say...

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

We all will have eternal life, death is not the end for the believer or the sinner. It is simply a matter of where you go, but more important who you will spend it with GOD or satan.
Cool

ISA 64:17
"Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind"

Rev 21:1
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea"

When you have been born again then you are assure only entance into heaven, by Jesus' death on the Cross. In order to see God you have to be completely pure, i.e. santification. And then after you have see him; Glorified. Entance into heaven isn't the end of game, there is always more to do.
:rolleyes:

webacus · Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:39 am Post subject:

Dave, when you were talking about 'faith' before, sounded like you were coming from a 'works' perspective -- you know, trying to earn heaven through your own effort.

I think I now have the response I was looking for.
We're on the same page. Smile

I'm going to heaven only through what Jesus did for me on the cross. I don't deserve it (I deserve to go to hell). I can't earn it -- no matter how hard I try.

kelly · Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:38 pm Post subject:

Webacus, I agree with what you said about knowing you are saved. I don't know what I was trying to say, but you are right. We spoke about that just tonight at a friend's house. Our friend spoke a while about exactly that, and I was the one to say if you don't believe you are saved, that you are worthy of Him, then you are saying all that He did for us on the cross was in vain. He died for us b/c He believed us to be worthy of salvation. He died for us so we can be saved, to believe in Him is to believe we are saved. To not believe we are saved is saying we do not believe in Him. The Holy Spirit was flowing tonight among us and I know what I said to be the truth, I don't know why my post the other day came across as doubtful...

As far as the bible scriptures, I'll have to get back to you on that...we just got home and it's late. I will look into my notes and the bible and try to see what it was I was trying to get across later...

YSIC, Kelly.

webacus · Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:57 pm Post subject:

It's late?!
You mean you sleep? :sleepy:

I thought you're on here 24/7 !!

Davep · Veteran Joined: 02 Apr 2002 Posts: 463

The works and/or faith issue is one of the tough ones people deal with.

I agree with the Apostle James, For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

There has to be some fruit/work from your tree, to substanciate that you are a real tree/faith in the first place. Your faith has to be jumping, bouncing, moving, climbling, breathing, loving; in one word your faith has to be active. Once people acknowledge their faith they must activate it or it serve no purpose or benefit.

Jesus gave us the credit card, but we still need to call the 800 number and activate it or guess what? It won't work. Wink

Our ticket to get on board the train to heaven was purchased by Jesus Christ. Jesus' Death and our faith is what gets us that chance to go to heaven. Jesus got us on the train, but that isn't the end of story. That was God's mininum requirement, i.e. justification for us to be allowed into heaven.

We will enter heaven having been sinners; for most right up until the day we die. Once in heaven that needs to stop. :blush:

I for one believe we get into heaven, but God expects the process to continue. I can't image that heaven newbies don't go through additional training.

Earth was only boot camp for heaven Cool

webacus · Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:48 pm Post subject:

Dave

I agree, many people think that 'works' – achievements, charitable activities and good deeds – will gain them entry into heaven if they are ‘good enough’. The problem is, no one knows how good he or she needs to be. No one knows the score.

Besides, the goodness standard is unobtainable – we’re measured against God’s perfection.

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